Generation scripts

User avatar
nsf
Fusioneer
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:24 am
Contact:

Generation scripts

#1

Post by nsf » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:07 am

I found over the Blackmagic forums this guys videos.


and one with the scripts



this is from BMs forums
I talked to several people at the blackmagic booth and only about half of them really understood what generation is. Of those about half again understood how useful it is, and it's possibilities. So it looks like blackmagic has a great tool on their hands and no real idea what to do with it or what it even is. The one mention I can find of it on the website is "Includes Generation studio wide management software for assigning tasks, tracking assets, and versioning shots."
those videos are great for picturing the Generation itself, even if I knew how good it realy is.

My main concern is, that even here it was mentioned, that the soft is great but without scripting, its not that useful.

Is there any website similar to old vfxpedia which contains some "useful scripts" to be used with Generation?

edit: that ytb embeding is not working

User avatar
Chad
Fusionator
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:11 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Generation scripts

#2

Post by Chad » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:26 am

That's the funny dichotomy, Resolve won't let you do anything with scripts, Generation won't let you do much without scripts.

EDIT: That said, there's some serious problems with Generation that I have not seen solved with scripting. I think it's great software, but there's some things it's marketed for that it has no capability to do off the shelf. Of course we saw that with Generation 1.0 and 2.0 as well.

wellsichris
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:04 am

GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#3

Post by wellsichris » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:33 am

Hello everyone. I am trying to get a discussion with blackmagic over generation, I talked to many people at blackmagic's siggraph booth and about half didn't know what generation was and only half of those that did, really under stood it's power. So I put some two videos together showing generation basics, out of the box, then showing what we have done with some python to make it awesome.

If we could get more people involved in the discussion I think it would help generations chances of getting updated and even remain alive.

So please join in the discussion.

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewt ... 22&t=38309

Thanks
Chris

p.s. if you aren't familiar with generation go over and watch the videos, and then join the discussion :)

User avatar
paulrus
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:07 am

Re: Generation scripts

#4

Post by paulrus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:58 am

Generation could have been a great alternative to Nuke Studio, but Eyeon never seemed interested in moving that direction. I would have loved to have been able to use Generation for finishing projects, but it just never materialized. I'm not thrilled with Adobe, but at least they're doing their best to tie things together and make it easy to move assets between CC apps.

User avatar
SecondMan
Site Admin
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:31 pm
Answers: 4
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Been thanked: 78 times
Contact:

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#5

Post by SecondMan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:27 am

Merged the two topics together.

Generation has such great potential. Also because it can be used with whatever tools. It doesn't have to be confined to Fusion.

I've only ever used it once "properly" and that was on Anonymous. That's what, 5 years ago now? But it was such a phenomenal tool already. Just to have that oversight over your project so conveniently and fast.

Too bad even Eyeon didn't know exactly what its strengths were, or how to market it. So people assumed it's an editor, or compared it to Premiere (?!) or Nuke Studio. It's a front end to your project, which sits somewhere inbetween the edit and the project structure. It's neat. :)

User avatar
Chad
Fusionator
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:11 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#6

Post by Chad » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:37 am

My issue was that it was marketed as a multi-user collaboration tool, but it didn't have any multi-user tools built in except for chat. I'm not sure if that's been addressed or not.

If you marketed it as an editor with versioning or as a management tool for a supervisor with or without client sessions, it's great. I just think it was too confusing to have it marketed for one thing and then have nothing in the application that supports that unless you write it yourself.

User avatar
SecondMan
Site Admin
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:31 pm
Answers: 4
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Been thanked: 78 times
Contact:

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#7

Post by SecondMan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:02 am

I haven't used Generation since. Not more than fleetingly at least. The only "multi-user" thing it did was that you could set up permissions, so only certain people could change certain setups, etc. So you'd have a master setup driven by the supe, and then each user could have their own as well, etc.

What BMD needs to do, I think, is start sitting down with people to see what it is they really need out of Generation, and make sure there's an out-of-the-box setup that can cater for (most of) that.

User avatar
Chad
Fusionator
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:11 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#8

Post by Chad » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:16 am

But if one of the artists was doing something with the project, the supe was locked out completely. So the multiuser features don't support concurrent users. This is fine when your team is 4 people, but when it's 75? Not going to work. Would need something that isn't file based, but database based. Or you need a server using some sort of RESTful model.

wellsichris
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:04 am

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#9

Post by wellsichris » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:18 pm

Chad wrote:But if one of the artists was doing something with the project, the supe was locked out completely. So the multiuser features don't support concurrent users. This is fine when your team is 4 people, but when it's 75? Not going to work. Would need something that isn't file based, but database based. Or you need a server using some sort of RESTful model.
exactly even with 4 it is a problem. they really need to rework this, One guy I talked to worked around this by having individuals working in subs, and then he wrote a script that would consolidate that back to a main project. But this is something blackmagic needs to do. as is it doesn't scale well. when we get more people working on shows. it's consistent, having to wait for someone to be out of editing mode, we have the rule get in and get out, so no one has the system in edit mode to long, but still super annoying.

there's a handful of things I would like them to work on. but I want them to actually keep the product alive first, then I'll start pushing for improvements.

User avatar
Chad
Fusionator
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:11 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#10

Post by Chad » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:49 pm

And if you crash while in edit mode, chance you never unlock the file. :(

User avatar
SecondMan
Site Admin
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:31 pm
Answers: 4
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Been thanked: 78 times
Contact:

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#11

Post by SecondMan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:11 pm

Chad wrote:But if one of the artists was doing something with the project, the supe was locked out completely. So the multiuser features don't support concurrent users. This is fine when your team is 4 people, but when it's 75? Not going to work. Would need something that isn't file based, but database based. Or you need a server using some sort of RESTful model.
That was one of the problems we were having, yes, hence the "multi-user" quotation marks.

The supe's edit would only ever be edited by the supe, and be read-only for other artists. If someone else wanted to adjust something, they would "fork" the project and work from there. At least that's what I remember.

I love Generation as a concept and I can see a tremendously bright future for it. But it's not quite there as a product yet.

Related - I'm currently playing with Screening Room, which now comes with Shotgun. I'm finding it very painful to use. I miss Generation's speed and intuitive UI so badly.

User avatar
Chad
Fusionator
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:11 pm
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#12

Post by Chad » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:09 pm

Oh sure, with Generation, we could play out 2K images at 120fps. Was really fast. It choked at 4K@120, but was fine for 4K@30. That performance and ease of use is nice. And boy, I wish Fusion had flexible guides like Generation.

User avatar
French_Fry
Fusionista
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:04 am
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#13

Post by French_Fry » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:42 am

Yeah, we've toyed with the idea of getting Generation up and going, as far as integrating into our pipeline. But it just feels like it requires a lot to get it to that place. We have Shotgun and it has Screening Room as Pieter pointed out. It does the job, but yeah, it's pretty slow, and hiccups between shots...it's like a "poor man's" generation. But the advantage is, it works with little to no extra setup.
I think Generation could be one of those essential tools for any studio, but eyeon just missed the mark in where they positioned it and how they positioned it. I do fear that it will get the axe...or even just rot away in it's current state.

I was hoping that in this era of BMD Fusion, communication regarding Fusion and it's products would have changed. But in the past year, I haven't seen much change. ( it may be me...tell me if it's me.) It feels still very secretive, few and far between... same ol' Eyeon. :)

User avatar
Tilt
Global Moderator
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Munich, Germany
Contact:

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#14

Post by Tilt » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:00 am

Generation needs to work with tools that have already been adopted for collaboration and shot management: shotgun and ftrack.

How does gen handle shots that have multiple artists like 3d & comp? Even from those very cool videos above it seems like it's not designed for it. Nor is it an asset management tool (which I picture more like Fusion's bin system).

Chris, how much would you guess was the cost of turning Generation into a suitable tool for your pipelin? To me it feels like close to 5 digits. BMD would have to remove those hidden costs for Generation to become an option for more people.

wellsichris
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:04 am

Re: GENERATION: the best kept secret that shouldn't be secret. blackmagic discussion

#15

Post by wellsichris » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:37 am

so with asset management, kinda not really, you could, just make everything talk to a database that pulls info from generation as well as other apps, but, how to explain this, we are a "comp" based system. so almost all the tools are based off of that idea. not every shot needs 3d not every shot needs mocha or sytheyes. but every shot needs a comp, so that is our primary asset. maybe the easiest way is to explain how we collect assets for backup. At the end of a show, we have a project Archive script. now all this works because everything is in the right place because it was all put there by a script. so we know where to find everything. And what is important and not. so the script goes through and grabs, most the 3d stuff, not renders and not sims. everything else doesn't take up that much space by comparison anyway, then it gets to the comps. it gets the final comp, and looks inside it to see what was actually used in the final shot. goes through and collects all those assets, and puts them if not there already in a precomp folder for that shot. then the script makes a new comp with relative paths to them, that means all the test renders you did, get cleaned up for you. only if the render was in the final comp is it saved. now the 3d assets are still there if you wanted to go back because they don't take up much space, but not the renders. same with all the old versions of comp renders, essentially if it's not the final or in the final comp and it's a big image sequence. we dump it for backup. it can always be rendered again if needed. but not worth keeping. so as far as asset management, we know what's in a comp, and what 3d assets are in it. and where it's track came from. but if an artist updated a 3d asset, our system has no idea and it's up the the artist to let the other 3d person know it needs re rendered. we have tools that make it easier for mdd swapping and the what not. but more work could go into this area. but honestly, with a small group not a big deal for us.


the biggest deal with generation is it doesn't scale well, because of not being able to have multiple people editing. it's an all or nothing. so if one is in editing nothing else can be changed. if they said, per shot editing that would go a very long way to making it scale to bigger groups.

as for having 3d and comp working on something at the same time, not a problem, the comp script gets newest comp, the 3d gets newest 3d, so both tools work, the issues you get into is one of them has to be on bottom. as far as playing back in the timeline. but you can easily click on the higher level and playback that it just wouldn't go to review. unless you made it it's own shot. for example, ogre look dev, as a shot, then you render a 360 turn of it. well then that would go to review. or even just a frame. but it's based on shots. so you'd just say, show setups or scene setups are shots. it really hasn't been a problem.

as for development time. really hard to say, it's been me and another guy Rob Field, we got generation a couple of years ago. neither one of us really did scripting or python, I had done one successful python script before and it was basic. and needed a lot of help to make it work. We got generation, could see the potential. so decided we needed to learn python. that was a couple of years ago. so we started banging our heads against it, and over the couple years it evolved to what you see. if we had to start from scratch and do it now, with the better python ability, it would probably take the two of us, 3-4 weeks. it's not as bad as people think and Rob and I aren't as good as... even the people on this forum, Tilt for example :) the hard part for us was, just learning python while also learning the python connections to each app. that's why even in the video some of the gui's are easygui, aka tkinter and others are pyqt. we went down the easy gui path first. actually the no gui path first, but then learned easy gui, then learned pyqt.

as for hidden costs, the problem is, every pipeline is different and everyone swears by their setup. So if someone brings tools to market. Say we did, well generation is included now, so no cost there. but what would it have to cost as a separate suite of plugins? because then you are talking people getting it and not wanting to work the way it works and breaking it immediately which would then cause mounds of support issues. if blackmagic wrote everything we did. same thing. everyone cries because. "Why does it save to the precomp folder? wouldn't it be better if X" we have refined ours as it has developed and I'm sure we will keep doing so. almost every show. we find a new need, a new tool that would make life easier and write it. last week, we have a client that doesn't use the client review system. just texts, "all is good" so I made a "batch change status" script. pops up a gui. you select what the status is, what you want it to be. and it does it for the whole project. 30 mins to write. and now we have it. But you do that times everyone's shows it becomes a pretty big undertaking and a support nightmare. We were just discussing how we would have to write/ rewrite all ours to make it more customizeable to any one's fancy. We could make it a lot more changeable. but at the end of the day it's the balance between, it all works because everything is done by it. it knows where everything goes, so where to find it. and If humans get involved and want to keep changing things or not following the rules. then it all falls apart.

that's why epp, was trying to be so open ended. but I don't think anyone knew what to do with it. We had already started down our road so never even looked at them.

so I get the problem and difficulty for blackmagic. the more custmized, the better the tool is, aka ours, but the less adoptable to everyone's needs. the more open it is, aka epp, the less useful it is to people.

What they can do is fix the current issues. the muilti user problems. and some other's I won't get into here. make it solid and polished.
Then they could decide what road they want to go down. if it was me it would be a slightly more customizeable my system :) I'm clearly biased though, but it just works, and works well, I think that gets the small to medium guys up and going. and if you can't script it your self, then just take what you can get and stick to what someone else thought was a proper pipeline. the medium to bigger places are going to have scripters anyway.

This has been a long response, hopefully useful, I may post a version of it in the other one, just to try and keep that discussion alive.

Chris