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Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

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jcouritas
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Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#1

Post by jcouritas »

Hello all,

I'me new here, and i appreciate your efforts to creat a comunity around fusion.

This is it! cause of the deseases, i work remotly with fusion 16 studio. I come from Nuke as a junior compositor. And i have somes questions about performances.

First of all, where is the bounding box in fusion? I don't see it. In Nuke we have a line that show where the software makes calculations. Here we just have Domain and frame. But i don't see where domain is? ( actually managing bbox in nuke is the most boring thing in this software, maybe fusion have an auto systeme that prefent for over calculate useless informations... i d'ont know)

Second question is more about a proposition. In Nuke a talented guy developed a node called "card2track" (http://www.nukepedia.com/python/3d/cardtotrack )that use coordinate to transform a mouvement from a 3D card projections (with a camera) to an animate corner pin (Perspective positionner). This is really powerfull to gain performances in calculations. Is this exist in Réactor or in developpment?

3rd questions, in Nuke i used to creat a "layer" (a package of 3 customs channels with the nuke's channel Boleans équivalent called "shuffle") to put the denoised BG i the stream. I use the same systeme with fusion by just copying the RGB denoised channel in disparity channels and then push them out in the RGB when needed with another chanel Bolean.
It work fine, but is it slowing down performances in fusion or should i just add more connections to my node tree?

P.S: English is not my native language, don't be to hard with my quality of writting ;)

Thanks in advance

Cheers;

Jean

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Millolab
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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#2

Post by Millolab »

jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:22 am First of all, where is the bounding box in fusion? I don't see it. In Nuke we have a line that show where the software makes calculations. Here we just have Domain and frame. But i don't see where domain is? ( actually managing bbox in nuke is the most boring thing in this software, maybe fusion have an auto systeme that prefent for over calculate useless informations... i d'ont know)
If you need to visualise the DoD in the viewer you just have to left click on this icon and keep pressed for 1 second and it will pop up.
To disable it just do the same procedure again.

Image
jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:22 am Second question is more about a proposition. In Nuke a talented guy developed a node called "card2track" (http://www.nukepedia.com/python/3d/cardtotrack )that use coordinate to transform a mouvement from a 3D card projections (with a camera) to an animate corner pin (Perspective positionner). This is really powerfull to gain performances in calculations. Is this exist in Réactor or in developpment?
that seems interesting. I will have a look into it! :)
jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:22 am 3rd questions, in Nuke i used to creat a "layer" (a package of 3 customs channels with the nuke's channel Boleans équivalent called "shuffle") to put the denoised BG i the stream. I use the same systeme with fusion by just copying the RGB denoised channel in disparity channels and then push them out in the RGB when needed with another chanel Bolean.
It work fine, but is it slowing down performances in fusion or should i just add more connections to my node tree?
I think you could do this same procedure in many ways in fusion.
One thing I suggest is using the wireless link fuse (you can find it on reactor). You could reference your denoised RGB and place them everywhere you want.
Keep in mind that if you copy and paste the wireless link you'll lose it's reference layer. To avoid that you could paste an instance (ctrl+c to copy, ctrl+shift+v to paste an instance)

Cheers!

:cheer: :cheer:

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jcouritas
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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#3

Post by jcouritas »

Hello ,

Thanks Milolab for this fast answer.

I just want to add one thing.

In fusion creating layers in the nuke way (using channel boleans) seems to reduce A LOT the performances of the software. I ll use wireless link or just connect everything from the begining. The node tree will just be a bit less straight forward.

Cheers,

Jean

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#4

Post by Millolab »

jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:56 am In fusion creating layers in the nuke way (using channel boleans) seems to reduce A LOT the performances of the software. I ll use wireless link or just connect everything from the begining. The node tree will just be a bit less straight forward.
I think it's a matter of habits, remember that you can rename/color your wireless nodes or even use a sticky note to make them really clear.
That said if you could share some screehsots or an example comp it will be easier to see what's going on

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#5

Post by SecondMan »

Hello @jcouritas, welcome to WSL!
jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:22 amtransform a mouvement from a 3D card projections (with a camera) to an animate corner pin (Perspective positionner). This is really powerfull to gain performances in calculations.
Maybe in Nuke, not necessarily in Fusion. Nuke is great in many ways, but there are also a lot of band-aids around to compensate for its 3D engine which is often not that performant. Fusion, however, can be very - very - fast, and in many cases those band-aids simply aren't necessary.

I can't say much about this particular use case, but set it up in Fusion (do share!) and see if it's even necessary to build a workaround for performance's sake.
jcouritas wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:56 amIn fusion creating layers in the nuke way (using channel boleans) seems to reduce A LOT the performances of the software.
Ah, but there isn't "the Nuke way" in Fusion :)

Using Channel Booleans in Fusion is NOT the same as creating channels in Nuke. Not at all.

Nuke and Fusion are VERY different in many respects, and for one you really need to approach channels differently between the two. Nuke adopted the concept of 'arbitrary channels'. Basically an image stream can contain any combination of channels, all of them in 32 bit float, devoid of meaning - apart from RGBA - and references to them are carried throughout the comp until such time that they are being used, at which point the actual image data is taken into account.

Fusion is different. Channels are much more explicit. An image stream in Fusion is not arbitrary at all, and has 26 (so far) very specifically designated channels. For example, Z Buffer is not just a generic channel that happens to bear the name "Z Buffer", it is used as a channel carrying depth information and tools will use that channel for specific functionality (like Depth Merge in the Merge node).

Channels can have their own bit depth, too. For example, if I would run Optical Flow or Disparity on an 8 bit RGBA stream, the resulting Vector or Disparity channels would still be 32 bit float, all in the same image stream. But all of that is very easy to follow. Unlike Nuke, in Fusion when there is nothing available in a certain node, you won't be able to select the related channels in the viewers at all, because they aren't there.

This is really important. You, the user, decide where any of the image data is needed at all. In other words, when you insert data into your image stream, from that point on it is carried from one tool to the next and will require resources such as RAM. Do that too early, and your performance may suffer (greatly). Do it in the right place, and your performance will be excellent, PLUS your flow will tell you exactly where, when and why it happens*.

While at first that may seem a little cumbersome if you're coming from Nuke (believe me, the other way around is at least as bad), there are no empty, or "dead" channels in Fusion, no ambiguity about what is available or not, and I also have never seen the phenomenon of corrupting comp files because they contain certain specifically named channels that cause weird conflicts and travel from VFX house to VFX house :)

So, just like with colour, in Fusion, it's you - the user - who decides how things are being transformed from one place to another. Nothing is assumed, it's all explicit. Sure, that does mean that you need to actually know what you're doing, too. But as I have said many times before, there really is no substitute for knowing your sh*t.

In short, please do yourself a favour and do NOT try to copy what you were used to in Nuke, to Fusion. Things will break that way, and they will frustrate you, and they will be bad practice and they will make you think that Fusion is slower or more difficult than it should be. There are lots of similarities, but each has their own specific way of doing things. You will start organising your comps differently, build your logic differently, etc.

Consequently, if you've read the manual for Nuke, good for you, but you still need to read the manual for Fusion :mrgreen:

Or just keep coming here, that works too :D

*doesn't mean Fusion's flow view is perfect, in fact there's a lot of room for improvement. You will notice that, too, and when you do, please let BMD know?

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jcouritas
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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#6

Post by jcouritas »

Hello,

Thanks for this complete answer,
The manual of fusion 16 studio (often go in for camera tracking for example) looks great, but i thing i ll need to meet an experianced fusion compositor if i want to be as efficiant as i am in nuke.

For the moment the software is not to frustrating, i just meet some problems with the camera renderers (Aliasing problems with the software renderer and banding problems with OpenGL) , the pivot point of the transform tools (way less handy than nuke one). Some times the corner positionners just move the bounding box without moving the alpha Oo. There is no "From To" for corner positioner but i v'e heard that there is a better corner pin i reactor.

I remember that i meet those kind of problems during my learning of nuke.

But i have good surprises: performances looks a bit faster in fusion now, the grade node is realy nice (match grade is great !), and the hability to combine mattes inside keyers is really efficient. I've heard that fusion was worse for green screen, actually i found it better than nuke, Delta Keyer combined with Clean plate creats finer result than the IBK. I just need to build the BM despil equivalent for fusion and i ll be ready to go for it .

By the way i'me happy to see that we can have fast help in fusion. I think this software will have his place in post house, if Black Magic show to people that they won't just make a title tool for davinci. A lot of my team mate nuke compositors are waiting news from black magic to start learning it. But for now, it's complete fog.


Okey last big thing,

I know there is really good tools builders on this forum. There is a tool for grain managment in nukepedia called DasGrain, i don't have the skill to build on for fusion, but maybe some of you ;)
http://www.nukepedia.com/gizmos/other/dasgrain

cheer friends !

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#7

Post by Millolab »

jcouritas wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:42 am Delta Keyer combined with Clean plate creats finer result than the IBK. I just need to build the BM despil equivalent for fusion and i ll be ready to go for it .
I made a despill macro called "AdvancedDespill". That's on Reactor, have a look if it works for you. Also, I made a keying tutorial a couple of days ago, maybe you'll find it useful in your moving from Nuke.

https://www.steakunderwater.com/wesuckl ... 71d#p30183
jcouritas wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:42 am the pivot point of the transform tools (way less handy than nuke one).
did you know that if you click on your viewport you can scrub through the view controls of your active tool by pressing the TAB key on your keyboard?

Cheers!!

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#8

Post by Millolab »

Check this out, @jcouritas
https://www.steakunderwater.com/wesuckl ... =45&t=3908

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jcouritas
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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#9

Post by jcouritas »

Okey Last question, and i let people in peace after that.

I found the corner positioner hard to use because i can't find a way to set the startings points of corners pin.

I found this guy http://www.comp-fu.com/2012/06/a-better ... or-fusion/ but i don't know how to make is node work in fusion.

I try copy past the .fuse file in the fuse folder in fusion but it doesn't work.

By the way i ll test this grain node tomorow.

Cheers

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#10

Post by ShadowMaker SdR »

If you use Fusion Studio you can also install the Krokodove plugin, which comes with a lot of tools, including a more natural from-to corner positioner.

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#11

Post by Millolab »

cornerpin.fuse
Try using this one!

EDIT: It won't work anyway in Fusion 16. Thid fuse uses OpenCL so it's no longer compatible.
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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#12

Post by Midgardsormr »

I prefer to use the Grid Warp with a grid size of 1 in X and Y rather than Corner Positioner. Not only do you get both 'from' and 'to' rectangles, you can also marquee select the points. Just don't forget to untick 'Black Background' in the Rendering tab. If the tangents wind up twisted, select all points and Ctrl+L to re-linearize them.

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#13

Post by jcouritas »

Hello again friends,

I'me using Fusion since two weeks now, things are going well thanks to the help of this forum (your bounding boxes and corner positioning advise help me a lot)
Until now the auto tracker from camera tracks works odd. The camera tracker of Fusion stand alone refuse to export an animated camera, i just have a freeze cam without animations, but if i copy past the camera tracker inside davinci, and just click export camera, davinci export correctly the camera with correct animation... Oo i still don't understand why the camera tracker works better inside davinci than in the stand alone. so i just copy past the camera from davinci inside fusion and every thing works well, but the workflow is a bit odd.

I didn't manage to have a clean render from OpenGL renderer so i always use software renderer, some severe banding issue from openGL renderer on gradiant color, i try to chage filtering and renderer to half float and even 32 bit float but i still have thoses troubles It's important to notice that i work with ACES cg workflow (every colors space are set correctly following the ACES central advises).

In the tracking panel it's look like we can add planar track, and 2D track manually "New track defaults" but i can't find where can i draws shapes or creat 2D tracker...
Finally is it possible to link this camera track to another solve of an another shot set in the same place? So the tracker better see hidden buildings for example...?

I didn't find further information inside the fusion 16 stand alone manual. Actually the manual is pretty blury about camera tracker.

Thanks in advance for your future answers.

I work with the GTX 1080 graphic card for rendering questions.

Cheers ,

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Re: Somes Questions from a nuke compositor

#14

Post by Millolab »

i'm guessing some GPU issues. But i'm on Mac... so i can't really help you in this regard... sorry!